Just a few more cents to toss in the jelly jar......
The Muslim world is, with almost no exception, made up from two populations within the overall Faith. Sunni and Shia. Those two would fight each other to the death and then pack weapons for Paradise, if they thought they could continue the battle there, too.
In the case of ISIS? The Gulf States are irritable about even using the I.S. name for the sense of legitimacy it gives them in ANY form ...and for how deeply they hate them. There are your Sunni's heard from as representative of the rest aligning against ISIS.
Across the Gulf and on the Med are the two remaining Shia populations on Earth and holding any degree of political power. Syria's Assad regime and the Iranian Government. ISIS is dedicated to murdering Assad, apparently, MORE so than anyone in the West is/was (and that IS saying something!). Iran is openly using specialists in Syria and command elements with field advisers in Iraq.
I.E..... The heads of the Shia sect and the heads of the Sunni sect are doing something I think we can term as fairly rare. They're unified, albeit at a distance, on the same battlefield, at the same time, en masse....against the SAME target of 'fellow Muslims'.
That would seem to show the level ISIS is viewed at by the heads of both sides to the Islamic Faith.
One more thing to add (last thing tonight, I promise). However, this fits too well, given that I was just using the Taliban as an example. It seems...even THEY are openly fighting ISIS or the hint of them appearing in Afghanistan with any numbers or power.
ISIS is doing one thing. They are dividing the scene into two camps. Those for the Caliphate and those against.
The Hazaras - a largely Shi'ite minority killed in the thousands during the Taliban's hard-line Sunni Islamist rule of the 1990s - came to their old enemies seeking protection against what they deemed an even greater threat: masked men operating in the area calling themselves "Daish", a term for Islamic State in the region.
In a sign of changing times, the Taliban commanders agreed to help, said Abdul Khaliq Yaqubi, one of the elders at the meeting held in the eastern province of Ghazni.
The unusual pact is a window into deepening anxiety in Afghanistan over reports of Islamic State (IS) radicals gaining a foothold in a country already weary of more than a decade of war with the Taliban
Post by brotherman on Mar 25, 2015 12:46:23 GMT -6
Thomas Friedman of the NY Post wrote an awesome book called Longitudes and Attitudes which is an analysis of his work after 9-11. The books describes the very same things as the lack of Islamic countries evolution into the modern world and why this leads way to a breeding ground of radicals and hatred for the west. The most important thing I got from his book is the effect of their religious schools that do not teach modern science, biology, or even world history correctly that it is in many cases written in such a way that only supports Islamic faith. Comparatively he discusses the difference between modern Islamic countries to those in the ME and the results are startling but I won't ruin it for you guys if you are interested in reading the book yourselves.
The mean, nasty-ass honey badger in a bar near you!
Everytime a bomb goes off destroy a mosque. Every temple or church that is destroyed there goes another Mosque. 1.3 billion is just a target rich environment IMO. I have more faith in China knocking their dicks in the dirt than I do the west especially with our Muslim and chief and his advisers. I did hear that China has developed the neutron bomb which fits this scenario in so many ways. Unfortunately they will probably use it on Taiwan some day instead of the true enemy of man and womankind which is the sick form of governance that is called Islam.
When things start blowing up in one's neighborhood and people just going to work or shopping are maimed and killed then maybe more people will realize what a sick cult of animals certain segments of the so called religion is.
Another problem is the so called radicals are like a few cancer cells in that they can infect the entire body. It has happened and is happening today.
With 4 wives and 11 children the 1.3 billion is but a drop in the bucket given a few more generations.. Unless they continue killing each other which as far as I am concerned; bring the popcorn and the binoculars.
Back in the late 70s and in Saudi Arabia I formed my opinions about their version of Islam.. It was sick then and has only gotten worse by their funding (terrorist) schools and Mosque all over the world.
I can not understand any woman accepting Islam as a faith unless she is totally forced..
Sorry I could not express how I really feel ... words fail me.. The radicals are like a swarm of hungry mosquitoes... it is their nature to suck you blood for their very survival depends on it.. There is no reasoning with them for it is there nature.. and as far as I am concerned get the bug spray.
Wrecked my last attempt at quoting so this'll have to do.
I don't see ISIS perverting anything. They are purists. And what do purists eventually get around to doing? Purifying.
If you want to truly know Islam ... look to these extremists. The Koran is pretty darn clear, and they are following it to the letter.
To the theme of this thread, and what Doug so clearly articulated, Islam isn't Just a religion. FWIW, I don't see Scientology as a religion either. Both of these groups have established themselves as 'governing' bodies over their membership and the followers behave like your definitive cultist. There may be moderates on the roles, but they're as much the problem as the head-choppers and the picketers.
If either group put me on their dance card they'd find I'm well versed in the all the required steps.
Clearly all of these are cults, if WWII taught us anything you can't kill a cult. You can kill its current participants but the cult never goes away. Transcripts from Manson revealed his claim to be a carbon copy of one of the founding members of Scientology and he was proud of it. If we dig hard enough you will find a Nazi connection between Islam and Nazi Germany. Some of the Nazi researchers seem to feel they are in the background today helping cause problems.
Post by brotherman on Mar 25, 2015 19:43:09 GMT -6
The Nazi connection, there is alot of Nazi in America, when we destroyed Nazi supply lines we were blowing up vehicles made by the Ford motor company. We in America in our governing system adopted many Nazi tactics and Nazi personnel, wasn't because that is what we voted for but because it was the buying power of American corporate interests, hell the British royal family is more Nazi then they are British and much of it had to do with stopping communism. When the ME can no longer sell oil the only thing they will have to export is very angry youth we are seeing this today, in America if we do not do some thing we may suffer a similar paradigm. Our leadership hoards secrets of the past while preventing our futures for the sake of the few this trend is relevant in other places and not so apparent in 2nd world places moving forward. It makes me think at least.
The mean, nasty-ass honey badger in a bar near you!
Under operation paperclip we split the "top scientist" with Russia and they started and ran the NASA apollo space program under Wernher Von Braun. Ford was a major contributor to the Nazi party in the early stages, as well as Bush Sr. father Prescott Bush, the US ended up taking everything away from him. But he married the daughter of one of the major bankers and got him back into the high finance game again where he owned a company making boats for the military and was the creator of the USO believe it or not.
The highest Nazi scientist that did their black projects went to Argentina with the blessing of Juan Peron, just google earth some of the cities close to one of the large lakes and you will see the street names in german, as well as a major blvd. named Henry Ford. The Nazi they have today are to overt and are nothing more than cannon fodder for the secret part of the movement that controls much of the large finance throughout the world. There are several Nazi researchers on line and the best is probably Peter Lavenda and he wrote a book called Sinister Forces. As I said in my post they are still here, involved in world turmoil, and the Nazi's skin heads and trouble makers here are nothing more than funny dressing cannon fodder. Its the behind the scenes individuals we are interested in.
Did anyone see the the news article from Australia? SOURCE: Interesting stuff for sure. "Nazi hide-out found deep in Argentine jungle"
The Nazi got involved with Iran and the ME during WWII because they shared the same anti jewish interest. It is my understanding that even today the researchers can tie them into todays ME troubles.
And you and I will be long dead when they run out of oil.
Post by brotherman on Mar 25, 2015 21:38:22 GMT -6
I've been well aware for a long time. I am of the camp that thinks that there is a type of fortress for the brightest of minds that unconventionally thinks alone and stands with others the idea of finance is only a minor cut that bleeds for a little bit as there are so many like me former soldiers, scientists, and innovators that it is in my opinion impossible to hide. The same system that has been around forever is also the system that will evolve, like the combustion engine hasnt' really changed in over a hundred years but gets "new" attention. Even in the darkest of places, moments, and time all one has to do is look to the right or the left and see it for themselves. we really are a part of something greater then ourselves whether we disagree or not, don't call me a borg quite yet, consider right now we are recording a piece that could be proof no matter where we are on this planet as much as other media would have it politics don't matter and we get along just fine.
The mean, nasty-ass honey badger in a bar near you!
If you sit still ... with a very open mind ... you'll see there was a reason I opened this thread the way I did.
I don't ascribe to certain ways we did things at TOS. To confine oneself to "Islam and the definition of religion" would be a disservice to the readership. Same concept of respect should apply to/with anything posted by me. Say what you want without reservation or restriction.
The rabbit hole this thread is following is leading to/honing in on the general target area.
You can look back through the last hundred years of history and see very interesting patterns in rise and fall. If you look at this from the 100,000 ft perspective it's theme centric. Religion -> Control -> Power
Sometimes people promote a religion ... and sometimes they deny one. The results are usually predictable until the spotlight burns itself out.
Islam can't evolve because that is blasphemy. The hardliners will take your head for even suggesting it. There's a reason for division (Sunni and Shia spring immediately to mind) ... but ultimately ... there can be only one. And, there are lots more heads going to role before that day comes.
You are correct - kinda. The wahabbist ideology of the likes of ISIS would not be recognized by a muslim of the generation of Mohammed - but the wahabbists think it would, and furthermore, they think anyone who doesn't think like them is either an infidel or an "innovator" (if they are muslim, i.e. "non infidel"). See, ISIS and their ilk THINK they are following the original religion of "the companions" - but they aren't.... BUT that won't stop them from insisting everyone else follow their way of thinking, anyhow. To ISIS, Mohammed himself would be an "innovator" and subject to some pretty severe punishment if he were magically transported to the modern day.
Note to ISIS: that's right. I said it you asshats. Right out loud, in public. Come get me. I ain't hard to find. I saw where you put out a "hit list", and I got sumpin' for ya.
Back to talking to human beings now: Speaking of sacrilege, I saw what you did with the Highlander thing there -"There can be only One" and the whole heads rolling thing. Talk about sacrelige! You know you're probably gonna burn in Gehenna for that, right?
No - I DON'T mean Gehenna, Ohio.... but it runs a close second.
Just a few more cents to toss in the jelly jar......
The Muslim world is, with almost no exception, made up from two populations within the overall Faith. Sunni and Shia. Those two would fight each other to the death and then pack weapons for Paradise, if they thought they could continue the battle there, too.
In the case of ISIS? The Gulf States are irritable about even using the I.S. name for the sense of legitimacy it gives them in ANY form ...and for how deeply they hate them. There are your Sunni's heard from as representative of the rest aligning against ISIS.
Across the Gulf and on the Med are the two remaining Shia populations on Earth and holding any degree of political power. Syria's Assad regime and the Iranian Government. ISIS is dedicated to murdering Assad, apparently, MORE so than anyone in the West is/was (and that IS saying something!). Iran is openly using specialists in Syria and command elements with field advisers in Iraq.
I.E..... The heads of the Shia sect and the heads of the Sunni sect are doing something I think we can term as fairly rare. They're unified, albeit at a distance, on the same battlefield, at the same time, en masse....against the SAME target of 'fellow Muslims'.
That would seem to show the level ISIS is viewed at by the heads of both sides to the Islamic Faith.
I don't have gold stars to hand out, so please accept another excellent post award!
You do bring up some interesting points - interesting to me, anyhow. For years and years, we left Assad alone and let Syrians run Syria as they saw fit. Along comes some Sunnis who REALLY want Shi'ites dead, and all of a sudden we pounce on Assad like he was Satan incarnate or something? WTF is up with that? WHY are we suddenly doing ISIS and AQ bidding? It's almost as if someone sent an order to the White House...
Also, Sunni and Shi'a ARE uniting against a common enemy, however tentatively and at a distance in most cases. One of the exceptions is the assault in Tikrit - there are Sunni and Shi'a side by side there fighting against ISIS... or there were. Iraq requested some US air strikes to support that offensive, and (now this came from the top, RIGHT OUT OF THE OVAL OFFICE) we said "sure - just get them damned Iranians and Shi'ites out of there first".
WTF?
An ally is an ally, and if it says "Front - towards enemy" anywhere on it when it starts unloading projectiles, I want it on MY side of the mountain facing the same "front" I'm facing! It is odd to me that Sunni and Shi'a CAN WORK TOGETHER IN SPITE OF THEIR DIFFERENCES - but now WE can't. We will only take Sunnis to the dance now.
WTF?
Way to go, Dumbass in Chief - he can't even get the lessons "ignorant cave dwelling goat herders" can get down pat! We're going to lose this war in a huge way, snatch defeat right out of the jaws of a certain victory, if we don't get someone in there who knows which end wags and which end bites... someone who can read and comprehend the simple phrase "Front - towards enemy".
One more thing to add (last thing tonight, I promise). However, this fits too well, given that I was just using the Taliban as an example. It seems...even THEY are openly fighting ISIS or the hint of them appearing in Afghanistan with any numbers or power.
ISIS is doing one thing. They are dividing the scene into two camps. Those for the Caliphate and those against.
The Hazaras - a largely Shi'ite minority killed in the thousands during the Taliban's hard-line Sunni Islamist rule of the 1990s - came to their old enemies seeking protection against what they deemed an even greater threat: masked men operating in the area calling themselves "Daish", a term for Islamic State in the region.
In a sign of changing times, the Taliban commanders agreed to help, said Abdul Khaliq Yaqubi, one of the elders at the meeting held in the eastern province of Ghazni.
The unusual pact is a window into deepening anxiety in Afghanistan over reports of Islamic State (IS) radicals gaining a foothold in a country already weary of more than a decade of war with the Taliban
Hazaras are not only a religious minority, they are an ethnic one as well. Nearly everyone else in Afghanistan wants to beat them up and take their lunch money. It wasn't just the Taliban, although the Taliban have been the most open and brutal about it. This story is suspicious to me, and I'll tell you why. First, the Hazaras suddenly see the Taliban as their savior? There are plenty of other places they could have turned - why suddenly come out with a story making the Taliban out to be heroes?
One of the BIG tells, though, is the sentence "masked men operating in the area calling themselves 'Daish', a term for Islamic State in the region." that is a No-Go at this station. ISIS has repeatedly threatened to cut the tongues out of the heads of anyone calling them "Daesh", which is not only a semi-accurate acronym for their name, but more importantly a derogatory term describing them. Daesh hates being called Daesh - and I have serious reservations regarding a news story claiming they are suddenly calling themselves that.
Don't get me wrong - I know for fact that ISIS has infiltrated Afghanistan AND Pakistan, especially the northwest tribal regions of Pakistan. I also have no reason to disbelieve that someone is making life hard on Hazaras - someone always has. I just have to wonder WHO that "someone" really is in this case. Fingers usually point at whomever would get the most benefit out of any given scenario... certainly not ISIS, as they would be required to cut their own tongues out for calling themselves Daesh. Who gets to be the heroes here and rush in to save the day, hopefully getting "good press" in the process? Who has people (i.e. "new supporters") driven straight into their lovin' arms here?
It ain't just money that sometimes has to be followed.
One more thing to add (last thing tonight, I promise). However, this fits too well, given that I was just using the Taliban as an example. It seems...even THEY are openly fighting ISIS or the hint of them appearing in Afghanistan with any numbers or power.
ISIS is doing one thing. They are dividing the scene into two camps. Those for the Caliphate and those against.
Hazaras are not only a religious minority, they are an ethnic one as well. Nearly everyone else in Afghanistan wants to beat them up and take their lunch money. It wasn't just the Taliban, although the Taliban have been the most open and brutal about it. This story is suspicious to me, and I'll tell you why. First, the Hazaras suddenly see the Taliban as their savior? There are plenty of other places they could have turned - why suddenly come out with a story making the Taliban out to be heroes?
One of the BIG tells, though, is the sentence "masked men operating in the area calling themselves 'Daish', a term for Islamic State in the region." that is a No-Go at this station. ISIS has repeatedly threatened to cut the tongues out of the heads of anyone calling them "Daesh", which is not only a semi-accurate acronym for their name, but more importantly a derogatory term describing them. Daesh hates being called Daesh - and I have serious reservations regarding a news story claiming they are suddenly calling themselves that.
Thank you for weighing in, and I was wondering a bit about the Daesh comment myself. I couldn't place it with certainty, since I've only read about the realities over there and not experienced it. Still..I could have sworn I heard that term before in context that was downright ugly to who it was being used to refer to. Thanks for confirming that.
I wonder, and this is an honest question for those who do know much more about this war than I do. Is it possible the fear factor among the factions, and smaller ones especially, is high enough to cause them to seek alliances like this?
I mean, in Iraq and Syria, ISIS doesn't negotiate or find 'ways to live together'. You subscribe to their way or you are summarily killed for it, so they may 'purify' their immediate living space of infidels. Could their 'no-crap' approach to really DOING it with people, perhaps scare the Afghan factions into this sort of alliance building in a hurry?
Thank you for weighing in, and I was wondering a bit about the Daesh comment myself. I couldn't place it with certainty, since I've only read about the realities over there and not experienced it. Still..I could have sworn I heard that term before in context that was downright ugly to who it was being used to refer to. Thanks for confirming that.
I wonder, and this is an honest question for those who do know much more about this war than I do. Is it possible the fear factor among the factions, and smaller ones especially, is high enough to cause them to seek alliances like this?
I mean, in Iraq and Syria, ISIS doesn't negotiate or find 'ways to live together'. You subscribe to their way or you are summarily killed for it, so they may 'purify' their immediate living space of infidels. Could their 'no-crap' approach to really DOING it with people, perhaps scare the Afghan factions into this sort of alliance building in a hurry?
My personal take on it is that in the case of Afghanistan, it's not really fear motivating them so much as it's the drive for power. The Taliban lost a boatload of power and want it back, and one of the better ways to get that done is to create an environment where you can position yourself as the only hope against the Boogey Man.
On the Hazara side, they're probably just tired of getting beat up, and from their perspective they can expect the same or similar treatment from anyone in Afghanistan, so whoever is closest in 3D space gets the prize when they look around for someone to "help" them.
There is a rogue element in all of this, however. Not only is the Taliban attempting to re-establish itself, not only is ISIS setting up shop there, but elements of the OLD Mujahideen from the Soviet days are re-organizing, according to what I'm hearing, as a result of the ISIS infiltration of the area. They fought the Russians for 10 years, they fought the Taliban for 7+ years, and now they are gearing up to fight ISIS, probably for the remainders of their lives. ISIS is just another foreign invader as far as they are concerned, just like the British, just like the Russians, just like the Taliban, just like a whole train of foreign invaders and would-be conquerors going back to Alexander.
Peace is a rare commodity in Afghanistan, and most of the middle east in general. Just when some external power thinks it has it imposed, another upstart comes along and kicks over the apple cart and starts killing folk.
Last Edit: Mar 26, 2015 12:08:40 GMT -6 by Deleted