Who Here Knew, You Had Tom Report any income increase

Well now folks didn't go thinking it was free money, did they? Its only free to the people qualified after review and possible future redefinition at the discretion of the Administration.

You know what really hurts to be these people? Those who didn't use anything with the insurance just got screwed all the way around for the honor of paying membership dues to the 'I can say I'm insured' club.

As the WHOPR in Wargames concluded ...'The only winning move is not to play'.

To be clear, this is only for people who have taken subsidies, correct?

I don't understand the big deal -- if I take "free" government money by saying my income is going to be $15,000 for 2014, but I really make $50,000, what's the complaint in asking for the unmerited "free" government money back? Not doing so would seem to be encouraging fraud.

I learned my lesson a long time ago and always OVER-estimate my income to the government, because I'd far rather have them owing me money than me owing them.

I guess that we're debating two things, and the first, that these programs and subsidies shouldn't exist in the first place, is kind of a done deal… they do exist. Until the courts say otherwise, we deal with it.

The second issue seems fairly straightforward -- people not taking government subsidies that they aren't entitled to.

As for making estimates…

Me: What's your estimated income for 2014?

Flip McFliperson: I dunno.

Me: How much do you make an hour? And how many hours a week do you work?

Flip McFliperson: Ten dollars an hour, 40 hours a week.

Me: Fine, take out your phone, open the calculator and multiply 10 by 40 by 52.

Flip McFliperson: What's a calculator?

Me: Oh for… I can do it in my head faster -- it's $20,800 and you get a million dollar subsidy, okay?

Flip McFliperson: Go Obamacare!

adjensen,

Well, on this, we disagree on every level. I mean every single level there is to disagree on.

See, I don't accept that this is a 'done anything'. Not even remotely close. 3 abusive bastards and bastardettes, as individual PEOPLE, FORCED this upon the American people and by force of will with deception at every stage, and that is precisely how they did it.

Now I haven't paid a dime into this crap, nor will I even sign up for it. At ANY point. For ANY reason. Period. Full Stop...until both of two things happen. First, the Supreme Court rules the fundamentals of the law to be both legal, and Constitutional (not necessarily the same thing, as we've seen)....AND the authority by which I am paying is clearly seen to be the United States Government. Not the person, or representatives OF Barack Hussein Obama. He can kiss my fuzzy tail and choke on it....because it'll take the Super Court to get me to even entertain this nonsense between now and when this man leaves our White House. I'm 'just saying NO'! :)

-----

Now, if we put aside the fact the whole THING is on ground less stable than quicksand, until those legal determinations are made (Contrary to the fantasy world Obama inhabits...the Super Court is NOT a rubber stamp, and they could KILL his bullshit as quick as they could confirm it..with NO appeal and NO recourse possible....which I'll accept, either way it comes out).

Then we get to the matter of the subsidies...which I doubt many even understood for how they worked. Remember when I came out with the UNSIBSIDIZED charts at TOS? Numbers no one had apparently seen and were rather shocked by? Yeah...that whole data set was available on the BACK end of Healthcare.gov with a data interface you could pull the entire data table from, in raw form, to study. In that way? Nothing about this was a surprise to me, and I've been fully expecting it, as previous stories over the last year have indicated. 

However..... You, I and the other news hounds expect this because we spend hours, every single day, learning and reading about news topics. When did the Single Mom in Kansas, working 10 hours in two jobs...have time to read all that and understand what we understand here? Answer? None. Result? The Single Mom in Kansas is an unfortunate statistic and road kill on Obama's road to "fundamental change".....now looking at thousands to repay for something she never wanted.

.....some accept Obamacare..and some of us ABSOLUTELY DO NOT....as in..WILL NOT PARTICIPATE, PERIOD. This isn't like any other issue, where we all get screwed the same and we belly ache over the outcome.

This is a situation where some CHOOSE their screwing ...and insist they had no choice (I must live, pay taxes and die...outside that? I have a choice in everything), others have been herded into this because 'everyone else is doing it and we have to'...or perhaps their state made a custom version and it replaced most forms of Healthcare outside it (The Non-Exchange states). Then...there are folks like me....who consider this the first minor battle to have, as individual people, in drawing that line of 'TOO FAR'.

Well..this was well beyond 'too far'...and we do disagree, because I won't participate in an illegal system just because an elected criminal insists he has the sole and unilateral power to make the illegal into the legal. He ain't Copperfield, and even 'ol Dave wouldn't have tried THIS stunt. 

adjensen,

(We'll agree to disagree about legal status then...as your idea of 'worked through the courts' and mine are worlds apart) 

Let me ask you this question then....

Did the people signing up know they were getting a subsidy, as a standard part of what was explained, in every case?

Did they understand how MUCH of the payment was subsidy and what the total, unsubsidized payment was, without it?

Were they offered a choice, or is there a choice available in taking or NOT taking that subsidized rate? In other words, did the people take positive action in error to have caused this situation in the first place...or were they told the rate their data produced, and given no option about taking the built in subsidy?

If they were aware, informed and made the choice to take subsidy they may have to pay back anyway? Its kinda their problem. If they were not completely informed, and informed in good faith to communicating this very contentious part of the plan? ....then I submit they were outright victims of intentional fraud.

Criminal fraud...if we still allowed for the concept that law applied up as well as down in this nation.

Well, actually, when we're seeing millions of people shocked by a lack of information to understand, and it is from a program their participation is 100% mandatory in, by force of law? I think it does become incumbent upon those forcing compliance to insure understanding for the common or average person.

If the common or average person doesn't understand the program, with the downsides, to a functional level? It should either be a voluntary program or it needs to be properly communicated before penalties are levied. Anything short of it is a bonanza and exploitation of ignorance, and it is the mandatory nature of the program I see making that difference from other issues.

In reality...that subsidy didn't make it 'affordable' for many people. It made it physically possible, at all. Some of those un-sub rates run well north of $1,000 per month, depending on age and family status. That is enough to break MOST Middle class homes like a dry twig in forcing as a "You MUST pay this" monthly fee from now until the day you die....which is what this amounts to.


This is a unique situation, and what Obama is about to be schooled in..for the third, not first time, by the courts. (This will be his first serious education at the Super level on his making laws up as he goes..but it should be a good one)

He created a system whereby the only method of protest is to renounce U.S. Citizenship, die, or surrender your life's possessions to the IRS until paid. Quite literally, the ONLY methods available...are those...because the item of required compliance is tied to no behavior and no willing action. It is tied to simply living and being a member of this nation. Nothing, in this nation's history has ever stood as a requirement like this, with the possible exception of conscription to military service (and that also poses a very unique condition for allowing compliance by force of law, and prison being the alternative for protest).


As noted though...we probably agree on what to call this mess, and that is likely the end of our agreement on any aspect of it, by the sound of things. No biggy...can't agree on everything, eh? Also....this is DRAMATICALLY different by perception dependent upon which state you're experiencing it from. There is no Obamacare debate in California, after all, because they made THEIR OWN system that can and will stand with or without the Federal one. Over 30 states did not. Therein lay the gaps of perception vs. reality.